#SenecaProud

Pat Perdue  00:00

Hey, I'm Pat Perdue and I want to introduce you to my latest podcast. This is a co-production between my company YCastr and Seneca College in Toronto. Seneca College is a really great school. I know because over the past couple of years, I've been teaching some marketing and business and customer experience courses there. People come to study at Seneca from all over the world, which makes it a hotbed of innovative thinking. And a big part of that thinking is driven by our amazing faculty, many of whom are well like me, professionals, who are thriving in their own businesses, and teach at Seneca as a way to share their passion for what they do. But needless to say, I've been hugely inspired by the people I've met. And what happens when I get inspired? Well, apparently, I launch a podcast. So here we are. Welcome to the Seneca Proud podcast, where I get to introduce you to some of Seneca College's amazing faculty. So subscribe, download and join me as we meet some of the super inspiring folks who teach here at Seneca College in Toronto. I'm Pat Perdue, and I'm glad you're here today.

Hey, welcome back to the Seneca Proud podcast. I'm your host, Pat Perdue. And this episode is published during a study week, which means there are no classes, but all the students are feverishly studying, right? Hey, I really have to thank everyone who has been emailing me about the podcast and stopping me in the hall and tweeting about it. That really means a lot. And there really is a Seneca “thing” that's hard to define. But it's a definite school spirit. And I'm really honored to be part of that. So, thank you to everyone who's listening and writing in. Speaking of, this episode is published in February and it happens to be Seneca’s “We love our students” month. And Kate Collins, who is a project manager here at Seneca at our Helix program for entrepreneurs, sent me a super nice email and asked that I mention a really important initiative that's happening here at Seneca. So, in addition to being a project manager here at Seneca, Kate is also the co-chair of Seneca’s 2019 ‘Campaign for Students’. This is a program where Seneca employees can contribute to a fund that goes to help students with some of the financial burdens of attending Seneca College. And for first time donors, Seneca College matches each dollar for donations over $50. To find out more go to Campaign for Students but you gotta go soon. The campaign only runs between February 4 and March 1. That address that I just mentioned is in the show notes. So, if you're an employee at Seneca College, and you really want to make a difference in someone's life, you can go do that. It's so easy. And you know what? I totally won't mind if you hit pause, and just go do that now. And that's yet another aspect of how Seneca College is really a special place. 

Okay, so onto our show. Our guest today is Martin Waxman. Martin is a professor of the Seneca Public Relations and Corporate Communications program at the Seneca School of Media. Martin teaches PR, social media and journalism. And if you Google ‘Martin Waxman’, you'll see his online courses on @lynda.com and LinkedIn Learning. And he also runs his own media firm, Martin Waxman Communications, and he's got his own podcast called Inside PR. I mentioned all of that, because Professor Waxman is a great example of a Seneca prof who teaches because it's something he wants to do. And when he's not teaching PR in media, he's doing PR in media. So, he's the real deal. Our conversation begins with Martin giving an overview of the program. And then we move into the direction of social media, including Twitter and Instagram, and even Snapchat, which is a social media platform that is very close to my heart. I gotta admit, I didn't quite get it at first, until someone actually showed it to me. And ever since those early days, I gotta say, I simply fell in love. It's just a cute platform. Right?  So, my conversation begins with Martin providing a brief overview of the Public Relations and Corporate Communications program at Seneca. And then we move into more of his own background, and how PR is both changing and staying the same. So here is Professor Martin Waxman.

 

Martin Waxman  04:37

Ya, the Seneca PR program or Public Relations and Corporate Communications has been around for quite a while, and it actually, I think, has a good reputation. It's a yearlong certificate. There are two semesters, so eight or nine months. It includes the option of having work integrated learning components. So, it's like a co-op at the end of it. And it really blends practical PR and communications with theoretical communications. And there are a range of courses, including, you know, the introduction to PR, research courses, writing courses, strategy courses, you know how to be strategic. Courses on government relations, courses on investor relations. And then I teach two social media courses that I helped develop, that tries to incorporate, you know, the principles of communication in a digital world really in a digital way. 

 

Pat Perdue  05:40

So, you have a wonderful background and a wonderful story and a wonderful legacy in public relations, of which social media is simply one component. Can you share that a little bit with us?

 

Martin Waxman  05:52

Yes. And I started in public relations, or publicity, really, as an entertainment publicist. And I loved doing publicity, because for me, it was all about the relationships. Plus, I got a thrill every time I could get my clients in the news, like in a newspaper. Those were the days of newspapers, and magazines, or on TV or on radio, that was really, really exciting. And I worked, you know, in all sectors. So, comedy was one of the sectors I worked in. Theater was another sector; books and publishing, movies and TV. And it was how I got exposed to some really interesting people doing that, I'm sure. But at a certain point in Canada, entertainment publicity, especially when you're working with independence has kind of a salary ceiling. And I was, like, 110%, billable, I had no more time to spend. And I happened to run into someone who had an agency, and he asked me what I did. I told him, kind of what we do. Asked me what I build. I told him. He said, “Are you effing nuts?!”. So, it didn't happen quite that simply. But I did keep talking to him. And eventually he became a client of mine. Then I joined that agency and made the transition from entertainment publicity, to more of corporate PR. So, I was there at that agency for five years. And then I started my own agency specializing in consumer marketing. So, in product PR, really, around the time that digital was really starting to happen, or social was starting to happen. And I was interested in blogs early on. But again, we did very, very traditional communications product launches; a lot of news releases. But one of the things we did for our clients, and this is around 2006, or seven, is we held an event for bloggers, and that was, you know, for a brand-new haircare product. And for them, that was revolutionary, because they weren't sure if they wanted to spend the money on it. We said no, no, this is you know, where things are going. We need to build relationships with them, we need to get them out. And it was the first time that there was tweeting and live blogging from the event or updates shared on Facebook. The client saw that and it was like a light bulb went off in their head when they saw that and saw the outcome. And really all the subsequent conversations around their product. Then that's when we started to integrate it.

 

Pat Perdue  08:18

A really big watershed moment I can imagine. 

 

Martin Waxman  08:21

Yes.

 

Pat Perdue  08:22

That was a really interesting time around 2006, 2007 Digital Media was starting to come into its own with thought influencers, where if you wanted to launch a product, it became a good idea to approach thought influencers on digital. What have you found in that time and the time now, what might be one thing that's remained the same? And what's a big thing that you notice is really different other than the obvious, which is we've got all this social media and stuff. But what's a consistent thread that hasn't changed in terms of the fundamentals of PR, and what would you say is the big change, like if you just cannot turn the clock back?

 

Martin Waxman  09:02

Yeah, that's a great question. And I think, from a fundamentals perspective, is something that hasn't changed. And this goes back really to the early days of public relations to a book that was written by a guy named Edward Bernays, who was one of the fathers of public relations and Bernays is an interesting guy, because his uncle was none other than Sigmund Freud. And he based a lot of his communications theories on some of his uncle's psychoanalytic and psychological theories. In fact, Bernays is known to have popularized Freud in North America. He brought him over for a book tour. He did publicity for him and really helped him build his name. And in exchange for that he was able to use Freud's name and some of Freud's theories when he was talking to clients. Now, Bernays really understood influencers and what he did was he talked about the importance of getting a story or an idea into the hands of the people who matter. So, when he would have a client and wanted to announce something or launch something he'd figure out, okay, who influences the audience. And part of that is media. But, you know, as he said, it could be the pulpit, as he said. So, in those days, preachers or you know, the clergy had a big influence. It could be the speaking circuit. And really, by getting the story there and getting those influencers talking about it, that is very similar to what happened with influencer relations. And a lot of what transpired in communications with mass media that came in and certainly with television, is PR started to become a broadcast media in the same way that broadcast was broadcast media.  We'd shoot out these news releases, and lots and lots of stuff, not necessarily customizing it as Bernays stated in the early days with influencers. And along comes social media. And, suddenly, we have to customize things again, and really tailor the story and go back to the name, public relations, it's about relationships. So go back to the early days effect. I think that's one of the fundamentals that has not changed relationships. Really thinking about who you want to reach and who influences them. And how can you build a relationship and hopefully encourage them to tell your story.

 

Pat Perdue  11:25

Nice, really interesting, really interesting observation that it's almost come full circle.

 

Martin Waxman  11:30

Yes. And it's funny, I read Bernays’s his book crystalizing public relations, written in the early 1920s. Just this past summer for a course I'm doing. I'm completing my master's in Communications Management at McMaster. And that was one of the readings I did for an independent study, it was fascinating how much applied. So, one thing that did seem to change is where paid sits in a communicator’s toolbox. Because PR and communications was most often about earned media. So, getting those placements, and you get the third-party credibility. But now, because of social media, so much of social is boosted. Or, when you're working with certain influencers, you need to pay them and you need to disclose. That's very, very, very important. But you do need to pay them. And so, there's much more of a symbiotic relationship between earned and paid these days on a communications front. And I think some PR purists don't want to think about that. Sure. But they really need to because platforms like Facebook are paid. And they just are. Now the funny thing about that is going back to Edward Bernays’s book from the 20s. And he talks about advertising as one of the tools that the Public Relations Council, as he called them, could use. So again, goes back to the beginning, things changed in the middle, and maybe now we're closer to the beginning than we were, say 20 years ago.

 

Pat Perdue  13:00

That's really interesting. Can we talk a little bit about your program and your students who come to your program? Have they decided that they're going to go into PR and that they're going to go into perhaps corporate communications? What is their mindset, or what brings them to your programs? 

 

Martin Waxman  13:15

Well, it's interesting, because there's a variety of students, because it's a graduate certificate. Most of them have an undergrad degree, some of them have master's degrees. And every once in a while, we will get a PhD too, but mostly undergrads. And they have a degree in humanities, English, or creative writing, or theater, or history or philosophy. And they realize, you know, certainly on the humanity side that they probably need to do something to upgrade their skill set to make them a little bit more hirable. And they found one way or another, you know, through writing in university or things they've read about that PR and communication seems like a good fit for them. What I have to say is the Seneca students, they are so bright in this program, you know. I come in; I look forward to the classes a lot. And hopefully I teach things to them. But I sure learn from them, too. It's really a two-way street. I think you've probably noticed that these days in teaching. And so, I find that exciting. I find their perspective, really fascinating how they apply some of the principles that we're talking about, or how they approach some of the assignments maybe differently than I would, but certainly in an innovative way. And so, the students are fantastic. They're also in general, I think quite articulate and all good writers. You need to be a good writer, I think, to be in communications or marketing for that matter, or pretty much anything these days

 

Pat Perdue  14:50

Agree. What are some of the challenges that might take place in your courses that would surprise your students, maybe something that would push them outside of their comfort level?

 

Martin Waxman  14:59

Well, one of the assignments that I have, and it goes over the two courses. So, the two courses in social media I teach are really part one and part two. And one of the goals that I've set is to help the students become more hirable, hopefully, by helping them build their online brands, their personal online brands. And one of the ways we do that is each student has to create a blog. Now I say, a blog, it's really a website. But it is a blog because they have to continually update it with content, it can be anything they want, any subject they're passionate about within community standards, of course, but pretty much any subject. And then they have to not only create content on it, but they have to use that to learn how to optimize their content for search, use tags, how to promote their content in a street strategic way, look at the analytics, what's working, what isn't working, why is that working? Why did that work this time, but not another time? And at the end of it, one, hopefully, when someone searches their name, that content will come up right at the top. So, it's a great portfolio piece, but too they will have learned in a really practical way, treating themselves as a brand. So, they act as both agency and brand for themselves. I think it's really good, what some students are really hesitant to put content out there. Because you know, you're afraid because you're publishing it, and you're putting it out there. And you're afraid that you'll say something, and

 

Pat Perdue  16:33

And there it is for the world to see. 

 

Martin Waxman  16:35

Now the reality is, it's really hard to go viral. And one thing they do find is that it's hard, and a lot of work to get their views up so people actually can see and interact with it outside my classroom. And so that's a good lesson for them too. But I find I just I love reading the blogs. In fact, as we're talking, I'm in my marking phase for the first test course. And the blogs I've read just so far have all been amazing. Now I follow them. They have four posts this semester, probably eight next semester. And I followed them as they developed. They came up with their template, their first post, their social media policy. But reading the content, it's a real pleasure for me. And you know, it's quite exciting to see how they're bringing it to life.

 

Pat Perdue  17:23

Do they use different forms of social media to promote their blog, for example: Twitter might be used or Instagram; they might even be throwing it on Snapchat stories or whatever they're going to do just to raise awareness of it.

 

Martin Waxman  17:35

Yes, all the above, as well as on Facebook, although you know, younger people aren't using Facebook as much. But you know, it's really interesting, because so many of them have family members and old friends on Facebook who still check it. So, if they really want to see a bump near the beginning, they posted on Facebook. Then their parents and their aunts and uncles and friends see it, but you really see that bump. Now how do you sustain that over time? But Twitter's a really good one. And in fact, for the class, students all have to have a Twitter account to learn that. Because with communications Twitter's that newsfeed. If you're not comfortable, either creating content engaging with people on Twitter, you know, having a conversation or chat with them, you know, it's you need to learn it. Plus, it's where news comes from. Right? So how do the students use that in a strategic way? One thing I've noticed though, is Instagram has really over the last two years shot up in popularity as you as we know from reading things, right. And so, Instagram is really important to them, Instagram and Twitter. Whereas three years ago, I would say Facebook was way up there. Snapchats gone down in the last couple of years, again, because Instagram does what Snapchat did for the most part with stories and you can't be in every place at once. In a way, it's unfortunate that the concentration of social media is in the hands of so few companies. As a result, we don't have that much innovation. And we haven't seen a brand-new social network catch on in any big way since Snapchat, which was launched in 2011. 

 

Pat Perdue  19:15

Wow, that's a really interesting observation. So, talking about the program, when your students leave the program, they have a sense of social media, and we've touched on that part of it. Where does the traditional PR come in? Or is that something that's, that sort of takes - I know the answer to this, but I'm going to ask the question anyway. It takes a back burner to the social media or where does the traditional PR come into the program?

 

Martin Waxman  19:39

Oh, no. Traditional is really important. And in fact, students get a lot of traditional in some of their other classes, certainly in some of their writing classes. So what I'm trying to do is bring in more digital to their experience so they learn the importance of integrating it because as everything old is new again, you still need to figure out. Okay, how are you going to reach the various audiences on the media that they are happy with? It's interesting. Just before we started talking, I finished reading an article in TechCrunch, about some new Pew Research that said, for the first time, social media edged out print media, as a way people are getting their news. Now, that follow,TV is still number one. But TV is really popular with the over 50 crowd, and not so popular with the 18 to 30 crowd. Radio is still there.

 

Pat Perdue  20:50

Wow! Though, I know people are listening to it in their cars.

 

Martin Waxman  20:55

Yes. And I wonder how much of that has to do with all the podcasts that all of the media outlets are doing, you know?

 

Pat Perdue  21:03

They are. And the “podcastification” of so many programs, you know, if you want to hear that, if you want to hear a program, you can tune into the radio station at that particular time. Or if you want to catch the program later, you can download the podcast.

 

Martin Waxman  21:17

Yeah, we want it when we want it not necessarily when it's broadcast. And now that's all available to us. So interesting about print and kind of sad for me. I still am a print subscriber to the Sunday Times. Even though I read most of my news and information online, but I still like the Sunday Times with a coffee.

 

Pat Perdue  21:41

There's something about that, about holding the newspaper and flipping through the pages. And there's something about the, I don't know if this is a false sense of security. But there's something about a sense of the permanence of the printed word, when it's on paper, even though by the time you're looking at those words, the stories may have changed since you're reading them. But there is something I guess comforting, perhaps artificially, so about the sense of it. It's printed. It's on paper. So this is the way it is.

 

Martin Waxman  22:11

Yes. And part of that is nostalgia, right? Aching for the past. Because when I started out in PR, I literally read five or six newspapers every day, first thing before work. I mean, I was a news junkie in a lot of ways. And I still am, but I just the medium has shifted. I was a news junkie. I'd read The Star, The Globe, The Post, I'd read Metro, I read 24 Hours, you know. Because you see how stories play out in the different outlets very, very differently. And who thinks which story is more important.

 

Pat Perdue  22:49

You know, it's really interesting that you say that because, and not to not to talk too much of the business of what we're doing, because I really want to get back into your courses. But just the nature of how the internet has created a bit of a polarization where we don't have the shared or the nuanced perspectives that some of those newspapers would have provided.  With social media, we get the perspective that we often agree with.

 

Martin Waxman  23:13

Yeah. And I think that's a challenge. It's a challenge. Because if you're working for an organization, you're creating content. You know your fans like you, but your fans aren't every single customer, and how do you create content that reaches some of those other people who aren't already getting your content? That's a big challenge. And it underscores the importance of, you know, trying to break out of the filter bubble. And media literacy is something that I really try to instill in my students. So, for example, if you're going to share a post, or if you're going to like something on Facebook, or Instagram, whatever it is, read that first before you like it. I mean, it's great to support your friends and family and stuff like that, but read it and make sure not only that you agree with it, but that you check out the source.  In one of my social media classes, one of the things I do is I encourage students through an online discussion, to share news and information in the form of a tweet, just to get them used to writing tweets that would be interesting and posting it on the Blackboard discussion board. And then we talk about it in class so everyone gets a chance to read it. Maybe they saw it online, because it's hash tagged #Senecamedia, but if nothing else, they've seen it on Blackboard. And one student shared something that was an article from an alt right publication. I thought, wow, I had no idea her politics were that far right. But it was one of the more balanced stories so she introduced it. And I just said to her, “You know, it's interesting that you read this publication. Do you subscribe to it? What else do you do you read?” She said, “Oh, no, I've never seen this”. I said, ”Oh, you don't know what it does?” So I took that as, as an opportunity for learning for the whole class to reinforce the importance of checking the source, not only the outlet, how credible it is, who wrote it, what else they've written. I mean, it takes time. And that's something that traditional media did for us. Because they had that whole editorial vetting system. 

 

Pat Perdue  25:26

What's the surprise that happens in some of your courses where they come to your courses with one set of expectations, and sure those expectations will be met. And they're like, wow, I had no idea about this other thing.

 

Martin Waxman  25:38

There's lots of things that surprised them. I think one of the things that really surprises them, and I touched on this a bit earlier, is virality is so hard to achieve. In fact, not only virality, but actual engagement with a small audience.  It takes a lot of work to build an audience who's actually interested in you. And that's something that media companies did over time. So whether you're in marketing, or communications, you know, media companies were intermediaries who had audiences that, you know, we wanted to reach or our clients wanted to reach or our organizations wanted to reach. Now we can go to them directly. And that's really great. It's, potentially very democratized, although there's the flip side of that, too. But how do we get them to tune in to your point, when there's so much stuff out there?

 

Pat Perdue  26:32

Does that demoralize them? Like does that make them say, “Okay, we have to think about this a little bit differently”. How do they get around that challenge?

 

Martin Waxman  26:39

Well, I think that's where some of the strategies and tools and PR and marketing come into play. I think that's really important. You know, here's this great story. How do we get it out there? Because you can post unbelievable content online. You can create the best website or blog in the world. But if nobody knows about, it's like, you know, the old cliche if a tree falls in the forest, no one's there.

 

Pat Perdue  27:08

So if I'm thinking, Should I take the program? Should I not take the program? What are some things that I should ask myself or consider to determine whether it's, it's right for me?

 

Martin Waxman  27:19

I think the answer to that question is “Yes, you should take the program.”  Hopefully, once you make the considerations. One, do you like writing? I think that's a big question. Because writing is a key part of communications and always has been and is still really important. And writing is a key component of storytelling. That doesn't mean you're only working in text. But how do you write a script for a video? Or how do you write a conversational interface for a chatbot that sounds kind of real, and that you know, your audience, your customers want to engage with? So writing I think is really important. I think you have to like business. Because anything marketing, communications, you know, the fundamentals of business: what goals are, how you can establish SMART objectives for that matter, and how you can tie what you're doing to business goals and measure the success of it?  Because ultimately, there is a reason for what you're doing. If you just want to write novels, that's fantastic. Go do it. And you may still have a goal, which is to have a best seller. But you know, so business is really important, I think being organized. And I think probably one of the most important of all, maybe after or before writing is curiosity. The ability to be a lifelong learner and to want to learn and try new things. Because that is so important, I think in everything, but certainly in communications and marketing. 

 

Pat Perdue  28:58

Thank you very much, Martin Waxman, for joining us in this Seneca Proud podcast, I'm sure, based on your enthusiasm and your knowledge, your students are very well served by attending your courses. So thank you for sharing your time and wisdom with us today.

 

Martin Waxman  29:13

Well, thank you. And if students have any question, connect with me on Twitter @MartinWaxman, I'm happy to talk to them. I mean, it's a great way to start engaging with people. And thank you very much for having me. And, I am Seneca Proud too!

 

Pat Perdue  29:28

Awesome! Well, thank you very much Martin.

And that was Martin Waxman. Super nice guy, right. We recorded this over video link and he kind of waved his goodbye at the end there. Martin, of course is professor at the Seneca College Public Relations and Corporate Communications program. His contact information, including his Twitter handle, are in the show notes below. Definitely tweet at him. He'll tweet back!

And don't forget the Campaign for Students. Thanks for listening. As always, if you like what you heard, please head on over to iTunes and leave us a five-star review. It helps get this podcast found and it's nice to see. I'm Pat Perdue. This has been the Seneca Proud podcast. Until next time, stay proud Seneca!

 

Martin Waxman’s Contact Information

linkedin.com/in/martinwaxman

martinwaxman.com  

@MartinWaxman